Broken Tiles
Life is complicated and messy...Brian & Stacey Upton play question games each episode that spark intimate and personal revelations about their marriage, personal hopes and fears, raising kids and the challenge of planning the next chapter. Follow us on Instagram! www.instagram.com@thebrokentilespodcast
Broken Tiles
Kyle Thiermann: One Last Question Before You Go
A surf session sets the scene, but the real swell arrives when Kyle Thiermann walks us through the most important interview most of us will ever do: the one with our parents. We dig into why audio carries truth better than text or video, how a single saved voicemail can become an heirloom, and what happens when you trade the role of child for the role of journalist. The shift is simple and brave—ask specific questions, stop litigating memories, and let people talk long enough to show who they are.
Kyle shares the backbone of his new book—a personal arc of losing a close relationship to fringe thinking, then rebuilding it through conversation. Along the way, we explore the psychology of conspiracy status, the fallibility of memory, and the practical ways to record stories before silence arrives. The tactics are refreshingly doable: schedule a drive, turn phones off, press record, and start with one pointed question tailored to a parent’s quirks. We also look at how podcasting changes us as hosts, moving attention outward and shrinking the ego in the best way.
From river surfing in Montana to the limits of going left at Windansea, we tie craft to discipline and revisit the myth of rare talent. Kyle argues for compound practice—one honest hour a day—as the real engine behind great work, whether that’s writing, photography, or building a stronger family narrative. We don’t pretend to solve everything, but we do offer a rope bridge across isolation: story, presence, and small acts of sustained attention. If you’re ready to ask braver questions and capture the voices that shaped you, you’ll leave with both courage and a plan.
If this conversation moved you, follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave a quick review. Then ask one specific question at your next family call and tell us what you learned.
This is the Broken Tiles Podcast.
SPEAKER_01:Babe.
unknown:Hi, honey.
SPEAKER_01:Special guest.
SPEAKER_00:I know.
SPEAKER_01:Kyle Tierman.
SPEAKER_00:Welcome.
SPEAKER_01:How are you?
SPEAKER_02:Doing well. Thanks for having me. Just um got in from a surf.
SPEAKER_01:How was that?
SPEAKER_02:Uh, waves are good today.
SPEAKER_01:I saw some images from our buddy, our mutual friend that introduced us. Ryan Chachi Craig. Um, that you had a little uh sesh this morning with him.
SPEAKER_02:I did. Yeah, we met at the lane at uh at first light, and Chachi, for people who don't know, is a uh a damn fine surf photographer. Uh so he can he can make even me look good.
SPEAKER_01:I think Chachi has crossed over in the last couple years. Uh the the level where I met him seven, eight years ago, where he's taken a whole different podcast, as they say in the business, right, Kyle? Where his the level he's taking it to right now is is something special.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, he's just very obsessive. Yeah. You know, he he's a perfect example of someone who has um focused on the craft and doesn't let much get in the way of his focusing on the craft. Exactly. And I've just watched him get better and better and better. I mean, he was he was shooting me when I was 14 years old. He has an old photo of me at the lane. Uh I remember when I was in junior high at Mission Hill junior high. And uh he's just one of those guys who, you know, he he has such a love for the ocean. He's a bodyboarder himself and uh surfs, and uh he's just taken that craft of specifically shooting surfing and and ocean conditions to a level that uh, you know, it went from, oh yeah, he's really good for a local, to suddenly he's shooting the best surfers in the world and is pretty, you know, un undisputedly one of the best surf photographers in the whole world now.
SPEAKER_01:I agree. And and I think he's also starting to um, and this is where it's interesting for me getting to know him over the last like eight years, is I think he's also starting to pivot into showing the other side of it. I call it his Anthony Bourdain side. Okay. I I think there's a part where um as I've known him over the last eight, ten years, is that I think recently, you know, uh it's some of the some of the images that he takes on his way to the thing that he would say hired to do are some of his best work right now. Sure. You know, and it gets into that one is like um as he sees the world, and we're actually exploring it through vibes more and more each issue, which is um the collaboration we've got is he sees the world a certain way, and then I'm writing some narrative to the image, um, you know, you know, and it's and it's a little collaboration we've had uh the last couple issues that I'm really starting to kind of dig a little bit because I think it's um it's fun for him to have his interpretation, the what he saw behind it, and then kind of let somebody else look at it and um and kind of have you know their take on you know my own perspective. That's what art is. But before we get into Stacey and before we kind of get to this one, I'm gonna make you go through the uncomfortable one because for our guests, you're gonna be new to a lot of our guests. Okay. And so I'm gonna kind of read the bio right now. Um Kyle Tierman is a journalist. You tell me if I'm wrong on anything, just jump right in. Fact-checked it right here. Is uh journalist, filmmaker, surfer, storyteller who's built a career around asking better questions, the kind that crack open culture, challenge assumptions, and make us rethink how we move through the world. You've seen his work with Patagonia, you've heard his long-form conversations that drift from environmental activism to emotional adulthood, and now he's releasing a book that hits closer to home than anything he's ever made before. One last question before you go. It's a guide into the kinds of conversations we put off with the people we love the most. This is one that's more personal because I've only met you a few times over podcasts, and this is the first time I think uh we've met a couple times roughly in person, but um I think my gut feeling as I wrote in that article, Reese, I feel like you set a tone in the room, but you show up with honesty, humor, curiosity, and a presence. And I think it makes it easy for these conversations. Um, you know, makes me kind of feel locked in and tuned when we're having a conversation, but we are lucky to have you here. Um, you know, I'm glad we're promoting the book, but I think it's gonna also be fun to play our broken tiles game with you. Welcome, Kyle.
SPEAKER_02:That was great. I couldn't have said it better myself. You're gonna I'm gonna take you on the road with me.
SPEAKER_01:Stacy. Yeah, Stacy's been um suffering through my fanboy part of this whole thing because it's not so much um after our podcast, and I kind of did a deeper dive into some of the podcasts you've done a little bit farther into the writing, but particularly this brook this this book, um, it's been a big topic around our house.
SPEAKER_00:It's been a huge topic. Well, I'm sure Brian has shared how we're very uh we dig deep with the questions that we ask. It's something that we do regularly between ourselves on our podcast with our family. It's a constant. So your book, I mean, we even I think he told you over text that we've started asking his mom your questions during our we FaceTime her a few times a week.
SPEAKER_03:So sure.
SPEAKER_00:And uh she was interested, you know. It's um not every uh so I've had an experience with my own parents where have you heard of what's it called? Story worth. Story worth. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I did that with both of my parents. My dad, not interested. His book is about a quarter of an inch thick when he finished it. He didn't do very much. My mom, on the other hand, did. So it's interesting. Some people are really interested in sharing, some people aren't. But I think one thing that's really uh helpful is to actually have a conversation as opposed to giving somebody a writing assignment.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:That doesn't resonate well.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and I we uh know each other through voice. Like if you're looking at if you're thinking about a friend, right? Like you're thinking about what they sound like. Like there's so much resonance that comes through tone. It's not gonna be the same if they're just writing it down. Um there's a a really well-known um project that was done during FDR's administration when he came out with a new deal called, I believe it's called the Slave Recordings, where he um petitioned his cabinet to go around the country and document audio recordings with surviving slaves. Because these were people who at that time were old, you know, they were dying, and and he realized that there was going to be no more first accounts of slavery from those people. Um, so he took early audio equipment and they have become some of the most important first accounts of slavery that we have today, right? And and it was this something that could have very easily not happened, right? But you can go into various museums in DC and that kind of thing, and you can listen to these audio recordings with people who were slaves and then freed. And it's like try and get them to write it down and get the same resonance, right? So I'm you know, I'm a podcaster, um, and I find that there's something unique about audio that you don't get in the written form and you don't get in video form. Right. It's it's a nearly perfect medium that also can sustain for such a long period of time. Um, you know, if you think about where video is gonna be in a thousand years, it's probably gonna be very different.
SPEAKER_01:That's a great point.
SPEAKER_02:If you think about where audio is gonna be in a thousand years, it's probably gonna be about the same. Like we we have developed a nearly perfect medium to capture the essence of each other. And it's never been easier than now to do this with your parents. Um, and so often we just don't take the time to make it happen. You know, I've been working on this project and writing this book for the last three years, doing a series of interviews with my parents, um, and you know, learning about who they are, getting into you know, fading memories and building a whole new context for who these people are. But um just recently, actually, like uh last month, my grandmother, who was a hundred years old, um, passed away. Um, and I mean it was a great life, very happy she didn't. And my mom just recently told me um that she realized that one of the only pieces of audio she has of her own mother was a happy birthday voicemail that she had left her. Wow. So it's like one of these things that happens where you just don't take the time to do it, and then you're left with a relatively sparse amount of evidence of these people that had such a profound impact on your life.
SPEAKER_01:It's so powerful because I think even in that podcast we did, I talked about my buddy that passed with cancer. And this conversation doesn't bring up the same one, but it does bring up one that's on there, which is one of his last messages to me, which I still haven't deleted. And I'm not, I have a really burgeoning perspective on what this is, what this small expression of life that we have, the the finite period of time we've got. But I think when you were saying those words just now, I'm thinking about how much that means to me, you know, and it's the hey B man stuff. And it's like just it was a it was a nonsensical nothing message. It wasn't deep. I think he was talking about the Broncos game and the bet he put down, but that voice is more powerful than any image I see that comes across or any memory I have of him. It is that, it is that voice. And the other thing that struck me, you know, as you were talking about it, it's first person in audio. And I start thinking about, as you said, let's look deep into the future. The thing about the first person accounts we have in this in this world we live in right now is they're credible sources because the old world where you had to basically transcribe, you lost quote unquote a lot in translation. And so a lot of the beliefs is a lot of the narratives we believe as a species, um, it's not wholly accurate, but we do live in an amazing time right now. Like you can clearly edit this out, you can make me, you can do clips and kind of change the direction with this conversation is, but this is pure. This is pure right now.
SPEAKER_02:And I think that's why people like podcasts, is that it's pretty hard to fake it for an hour and a half. So you actually get the sense of who someone is. Um, yeah, and and the um the benefit also, I think, of children or adult children interviewing their parents is that you you get to step out of this role as child and into a role of journalist, which is a unique position. Like the the role of the journalist is not to react, it's not to take a position, it's just to let someone have the floor and guide them through a conversation so that they can um best show who they are, right? Right. And and so often, right, if you asked um someone to write down like, what's your philosophy on life? Like, let's take your friend, you know, who had the voicemail, like yeah, that's not actually your friend. Like that's not how he talks. And so often when we're interviewed, we start to um basically get into platitude world, right? Where we're not actually talking like ourselves. Like your buddy who's talking about the Broncos best, like, oh, that's him, that's who he is, you know, like totally, right? And and it's, I think our job is to get into the specifics of who our parents really are. Like, what are those little eccentricities that are so uniquely them? And and I always say, like, the best questions, you know, in the book, one last question before you go, like, I do provide a number of questions um throughout the book. Every chapter is a question, but I also say it's important for you to go through that exercise yourself and ask what are questions that I can ask that will bring out specific qualities in my parent. As an example, like my dad was a magician for his whole life. Like he got a box of magic chicks when he was 12, won the student body president campaign by um giving a speech in front of a thousand kids and having a magic dove fly out of his sleeve. Like, so I just said, like, tell me about magic.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_02:Like, that's a specific question to him. And we did a whole interview on his love of magic, right? I don't need to tell you who he is, but you get a sense of who he is by showing in the sp specific. So, yeah, I mean, my book is it's a guide, it's a personal story, but it also is very much a challenge for for you to sit down and ask a few of those questions that are going to be unique to your parents' lives.
SPEAKER_01:I think that's so key. And I think Stacy and I have both had this conversation about um when we started podcasting, you know, you get the transcript and you get a sense of how you may communicate with somebody. Well, the thing about transcripts is, you know, it also tells you what percentage of time you spoke. And then in this equity relationship on a broken tiles podcast with two people, theoretically you'd want it to be 5149, 5050. Didn't come out that way. And there's an insecurity in that. Our first couple episodes, it was way more like 60, 65% Brian, which is a deep dive into Brian, all of that. But I think to hear yourself and to kind of see a statistical analysis of how do you guide a conversation, um, it's really helped me along. And I'm curious to kind of hear about your 400 episodes, but even over the 25, 30 we've done, and then the hundreds I've done with Nelly and all the other people, is I feel like it's really been a nice positive. You think you're going in this medium and it's going to inflate your ego in somehow, but it's exactly the opposite. Because what you lead to what I've learned in podcasting right now is abdicating space. Almost what you're saying is the the thing for me that's dopamine, it's like this sometimes if I get that right question out with this fewest amount of words and they talk for 12 minutes, it's like it's this huge victory. Do you get that in your home run? It's a home run.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, totally. And and it also feels like a major strikeout when you ask the right question, and it just they go off on totally the wrong the wrong tangent for an hour 12 minutes, and you're like, oh God, what did I just do? Can I interrupt him now? But no, I mean, to your point, like um we are influenced through the media both that we consume and create. And I think podcasting and learning the craft of interviewing generally, even if you're not gonna release it to the public, is just a healthy thing to do. Totally agree. It it really is a good, like the world and your life become better when you get better at asking questions. And it's so easy to just give yourself the permission to to play interviewer and just do it. But but it takes putting on that interviewer cap um and kind of plunging in. But then once you do it, you you really get to um forget about yourself for a little bit and just focus on what this other person is doing. And and I find that you know parents are really waiting for that. And they I think that a lot of parents just generally feel like their adult children are completely disinterested in them. And yeah, I mean, you you mentioned having a conversation, I think it was with your mom. My mom. Where you asked her one question. I'm not saying that she feels that way about you, but it's it's just amazing what asking one specific question can do, and then just backing up and seeing where it goes.
SPEAKER_01:Stacey, I told them right when we got off the phone the other day, I was texting Kyle, and I said, I can't remember what was, but I said, I just asked my mom this one singular question. I said it was like 37 minutes later. What was your parenting style? What was your I think that might have been, yeah, and it took us 18 minutes before she even got it. I think she's so unused to be asking the question. It's the it's the whole point of it. Um that when you asked that, and she you did that one, but to to put a pin in that and come over here for a second, I want two things, Stace, like as you're kind of hearing that is like um you've gotten good at this, and it was a weird thing to start doing. So the first one is how is how is this kind of like this platform for us um, you know, kind of affected you on any level?
SPEAKER_00:That's the question I was gonna pose for Kyle, actually, something similar, but I will answer that first. Um so I I I'm a very shy and quiet person, but I do have a skill set of asking open-ended questions because I am a social worker by training and a health educator and health education manager by profession. And I have a lot of training and motivational interviewing and motivating conversations, and it is what I teach my own team to do. Um, and I practice it a lot at work, but not so much at home, not so much in my personal life. And so this our our podcast and and the format that we created has given me greater practice in feeling confident in my conversation skills, in asking pointed questions that allow the other person to really dig deep into something that's important to them. And although I know professionally and have known professionally I can do this, I never took it into my personal world before. And it's been great for me. It's been great for us and our relationship and our family. It's been, it's been really, it's been healthy, like you said.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. It's cool that you guys do it, uh, do it together. I feel like uh a lot of couples would do well to like go out on a date together and just put headphones on and put the mics on. Like they would for it would force a good conversation. It does. Right? Like I think that that's that's another aspect of. I mean, I know we're getting kind of meta here with this podcast. It's like the podcast about podcasting, but yeah, like to force to force yourself to keep the conversation going, uh-huh, it does take you to places that you don't normally get to when you just have your phone available. Um, I was reading an article in Psychology today about how the phone is so destructive for romantic relationships because in that single moment, right where you're pushing into a deeper level of conversation with your um, you know, your your boyfriend, your girlfriend, we now can just pull out the phone. And the the point that this journalist made is that depth in relationships is actually predicated upon attention. Like you and and I think it's the exact same with interviewing. Like you need, it shouldn't be super comfortable. Like a therapy session is not super comfortable. Like a good friendship is not forged just because um your friend is obsequious and just like placating, like, yeah, yeah, totally totally. It's like no, they're actually gonna challenge you, they're gonna, they're gonna lean in with love, but they're gonna push a little bit deeper to actually see you. Yes. Like that's the that's the whole point of this, right? It's like we just don't see each other. And when you find someone who can just push a little deeper to see you, you're like, oh my God, being human.
SPEAKER_03:That's exactly someone sees me.
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_01:And it's so funny because I think, you know, I don't think I've told you this, but the thing I love about what we're doing, as opposed to we're doing like 17 now, and there's a script to it, there's a there's an agenda in a lot of these real estate podcasts, but they still end up being organic. But this one started with a uh stocking stuffer. It was a scratch-off, it was a scratch-off challenge. Uh it says everybody's doing it, just record a podcast. At that point, I was with Gary Mile, and we had he had totally tubular go and we had equipment that we hadn't used. And so I said, let's not just do it on our iPhones, let's really test out this equipment. And it started that way. And I think the reason ours kind of connected, not only with us, but I think with an audience is I think in the first episode of a bullshit podcast that was never going to exist, she asked if you ever lied to me. Oh, that's good. It was the red question. It was the last one. And we didn't know, but yeah, it was good. And I had to, and I'm Brian, and we're in this one, I don't give a shit. So I was like, yeah, for like 15 years. And it went off from there, you know. And so it's sort of like it, it's I think that transparency sort of I didn't think there could be a harder question, maybe, and there there have been, but I think you start with one like that unexpected, and I think it set a template for like everything sort of, you know, on the table in this one. Um, but let's do this, you know, so we can kind of like and the thought now is we'll kind of go into the game a little bit.
SPEAKER_00:Um before we do that, I wanted to ask Kyle. Since starting all of this and approaching everything with this interviewer mindset, what benefits have you gotten as a result?
SPEAKER_02:I think I'm less narcissistic. Honestly, I I I think that like, you know, we uh we tend to look at narcissism as like something you're born with. Like, oh, he's narcissistic. Like have you he she was a narcissist? Like it's like no, it's just it's just like a quality that you can dial up or down within your psychology on any given day. And often the more attention you get around yourself, the more you start thinking about yourself, and the more you know you start looking in the mirror, and the more just your daily thoughts are focused on the self rather than other. And a huge amount of depression, anxiety, general insecurity is us just thinking about ourselves too much, right? Like, I don't have kids, but like the one of the primary psychological benefits that parents report is like, oh, you just think about yourself less. Yeah, like wow, it's just so not about you anymore, yeah, that you're forced to move out into the world, and the world will always be more interesting than yourself because it's infinite. And when you get into that noticing state of what's outside of you, you're you you just dissolve. Um, and and a lot of what I do and a lot of my I think even the way I've structured my career is to to be really careful to not become the mask that you pretend to start wearing. Wow. Yeah. And and I you with with social media, you don't even need to be that famous to become a full-on narcissist. It's so true. You know, it's it's a crazy thing. Like in the olden days, if you if a thousand people knew you, you were the most famous person in your hunter-gatherer society.
SPEAKER_03:Yes.
SPEAKER_02:Now, if you have a thousand people, like it can it's nothing, but it can feel like it's the world is all about you, and that has ramifications both psychologically, it has ramifications socially, like you're less likely to show up for your community, less likely to think outside of yourself. Hey, how can we make this thing better? And um I still have those thoughts on a day-to-day basis. Fuck, do you think you are? Like you're already human. You know, just like it that voice is always there, but I find that a lot of my own depression is the result of thinking about myself too much. It's depressive thoughts are very self-centered. So doing things like the podcast, doing things like writing, even if I'm writing about myself, it oddly becomes this kind of like camera that I'm writing from. And it's no longer me thinking about myself. And and both of those two um activities have just been immensely psychologically helpful for me.
SPEAKER_01:That's incredible. And Stace will back me up on this. You just put words as only Kyle can do to something I've played around with forever. I always use the numbers to the same thing, but I've never put narcissism to what I'm about to tell you. Is I always talk about getting married, meeting Stacy, having three kids. Is I always say that there used to be this person that existed, and I called him 99% Brian. And this is this is a Brian that existed for the for up till my 21st birthday when I met her.
SPEAKER_00:Um might have been 102%.
SPEAKER_01:There was this person called 102% Brian. She was fucking crushing it. All right, there was this person called 117% Brian, but the 99% Brian, you know, was this it in was all when Brian woke up. I was still a good person. I still liked, I was still very similar to what we're talking about now. But when I would wake up, it was my agenda, right? I'm talking about 17, 18, 20-year-old Brian. Um, then I met Stacy and it was lightning struck, which was lucky. But then I had immediately introduced myself to 49% Brian because 49% Brian, everything became more than Brian, even by that 2%. And that's a big drop-off. I always say if you look like a stock, you just lost half of your, but it didn't feel that way. I feel like a better person at 49%. And then you kind of get used to that for a little while, and then kid comes in the world. Now you got energy shelf 33.3% Brian. You know, then my son comes in, 25, my daughter comes in, 20% Brian. So, and I think what it is though, to your point, is by abdicating that space and sort of giving that space up, you become such a more whole person. You know, and it's and I think there's a lesson in that. It it is, you know, for me, it's even I'm obsessed with this model that we have at Vibes by, you know, dedicating what we did from day one at the business was by dedicating 20% outside from the day one to nonprofits, two small businesses, it changed the arc of the company. And I'm not Chachu, I'll be the first to tell you, not in our pocketbooks yet, but we've built something because of stepping back. It's it was it was it was counterintuitive. Yeah. But I think your words really resonate, I think, as far as um, you know, these platforms. And whether the red lights on and we've got a nice little setup, um, and it's going to Apple or Spotify, this is just as much, this has equal standing over a cup of coffee, right? Yeah. As far as this, this part of it. We record it, right? And we're getting this word out. But this conversation, we'd be just as rad if we were down at 11th hour and getting to know each other. Yeah. We should just bring microphones with us wherever we go.
SPEAKER_03:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:All right, we're gonna play a little bit of the game. So we have the um, this is um this is an intense sound right now.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, because usually we try to we try to get the theme song. This is 24.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, usually, usually this would be like the one where Stacy drops like, Have you ever lied to me? Okay. And so we're already there with your book, though. I think what we're gonna do though is play it, Stace, um, 27 chapters. You might know every single one. Okay. And so what we'll do is maybe we'll kind of draw out a number first. And if it's spot on, it's spot on. We can all answer it. But if not, we'll rework it in a way so that we can answer it. Whether you know, and so Stacey, why don't you start pick a one to 27 and how about I like the number 12? We gotta look at your phone now. Oh. Do you know it off the top of your head? What's chapter 12?
SPEAKER_02:Um, no, I don't know. I don't know.
SPEAKER_00:Give me a moment.
SPEAKER_01:I So I think um, you know, for me, the the chapters, let's before we get to the the Stacey's number, um, as you built this book, um, this is this is one I never didn't ask you in our last podcast. Is did it end when it ended, or was it always going to be basically, you know, was it how did you basically the way you go to work for it? Um, was it complete? Do you write the ending and then kind of write the middle part, or what's your process for how how long the book was, or what the book was going to be?
SPEAKER_02:I first and foremost uh knew that there was going to be a central arc, which is uh having a really close relationship with a mom, losing her to conspiracy theories, and then using the interview process to reestablish that relationship. Um I kind of knew from the beginning that that was gonna be the central arc, and the the best books generally do have uh a pretty simple arc like that. And you and I think you need a really simple arc. Like a lot of things can happen, you know, Frodo can go from here to here to here to here to here, but it's like generally he's just trying to get the ring and the the place, right? Um, you know, and they they say uh a look a book is like you start in a hole and the and then throughout the book you're just digging your way out of it. Interesting, right? So if you want to hook people, it needs to be like, whoa, this this kid grew up in some crazy ass childhood that most of us do not know about. Yeah. Um and I had been on one hand, just you know, wanting for a long time to write a book about this childhood and not feeling very comfortable to talk about on the podcast because I wanted to be very um careful with exactly how I portrayed that story. Like rightly the thing with podcasts is it's a first draft, right? So this is us just jamming. And I wanted to be both very honest about my childhood and what it was like to grow up with a mom who uh and a stepdad who just end in ended up investing a huge amount of their time in um bullshit conspiracy theories. Um and why that happened. Like what was it about them that caused them to so um ardently chase that? Um that's a really like complicated, that's really complicated subject matter to deal with, and and how to do it with it's a really funny book, right? And and the one thing about humor, um done a lot of stand-up in my life, and and one thing about humor is usually the most painful or uncomfortable truths become the funniest jokes, right? So it takes it took a lot of reworking and figuring out, okay, how can I have this be honest, but also how can I have it be a laugh out loud book, and then how can I throughout that arc have it be tactically helpful for people? Um because it the the first book there is just a memoir, right? It's it's having a mom losing her, getting her back. The second book it can become much bigger and much more helpful when I actually teach the interview skill. Yeah. Um, and there was a point where I I didn't want to write the first book anymore. I was like, this is just too heavy, it's too personal. I I'm just gonna do a how-to book that, you know, you could probably just chat GPT, that kind of book. Um, but I I don't think those stories really move people. I think they're generally cop-outs. Um and if I'm asking people to do something that's scary and personal, I shouldn't I should be showing you what happened for me throughout it. And then at that point, once you have the structure, it's just like, well, just stay what happened. Just say what like you don't need to then that because then at that point, it doesn't need to be sentimental and and it doesn't need to be saccharine, which was a big fear of this book, right? Is like the subject matter of interviewing your parents can just get so bad so fast if you have the wrong writer, right? Just like cue the violin music, and it's like, oh my God, this is so annoying. Yeah, right. And and I didn't want to do that, right? I just wanted to like this is just an honest account of growing up in Santa Cruz in a pretty heavy surf culture, having my mom help me navigate that very skillfully, um, feeling a huge amount of of love and respect for her and this this stepdad figure, and like completely trusting of them, and then also having to to do what a lot of children do in the growing up process, which is realize that they don't have it all together. Right. And how can I still hold love and a relationship with them without completely throwing it away, you know, which which is what so many people do, you know. And this is like, as I didn't know this going into it, but like parent child estrangement in the United States is an epidemic. Yeah. Like top in 2024, that one of the top 10 most read New Yorker articles was um written about children going no contact with their parents. Um I mean, it's it's just a growing movement of children who want nothing more to do with their parents. Uh, by the time we're 18 years old, we will have already spent 90% of our total time with our parents. So after 18, you get 10% left. A lot of times those relationships aren't very good. The children move away and they just fall out of contact. Um and I think that that's a huge reason for a lot of the damage that's done in society. Like I really would go so far as to say that parent-child relationships uh it it just seeps out into every other aspect of life. And I'm not saying that this book is going to heal all of your wounds, your issues with your parents, but I do think that sitting down, putting on the role of journal journalist, and asking some questions can be a kind of empathy drug that is highly valuable in the same way that psychedelics can give you this 360 view of your life and the lives of others.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Well, one thing I'm thinking about and listening to what you just said is Brian and I have often talked about um media in general being one of the biggest issues in our society and creating this, it's like it feels like humans don't have any tolerance for people with other opinions. And some of that may come from the homes that we grow up in, but we also see it in our politicians. We see it in various forms of media all over the place. And I think seeing that and maybe having personal experiences around it might encourage people to think that this is okay. This is the way to manage things that make you feel uncomfortable. And one thought I had about your the your interview process is first of all, it takes uh uh takes a measure of courage to ask these questions of people that you know. You some of what you hear back may be uncomfortable, especially if you've you know what your life was like in your childhood. So you may touch on some things that are a bit scary. But the way you just mentioned that you put on your interviewer hat, what you're saying is I'm gonna put something between this to protect myself and make this doable. And that is that that's beautiful actually, because that is what makes this achievable for anybody, really.
SPEAKER_02:Totally. Yeah. Just be yourself is the worst advice that's out there.
SPEAKER_00:So true.
SPEAKER_02:You you need to put on various personas in various aspects of your life to protect yourself and to be effective. Yeah. Like if you are the CEO of a company, you need to be the CEO of a company. Like you can't be the mom when you're leading a team, right? So true. And when you are the CEO, you can't be the CEO when you're talking to your kids. Right? Like a lot of um, you know, this is uh uh an interview that I did a little while back with um a guy named Jim Fatiman who wrote a book called Um he's basically the one of the foremost researchers on on microdosing psychedelics um in the world. And and he wrote another book uh called Our Symphony of Selves. And the argument basically is that we're not just one unified self. We're this confluence of influences, we're symphony of selves that are showing up in any moment to the next. And a lot of success is predicated upon us showing up with the correct self in the correct moment. Wow. Right. So, I mean, this is why we're coming home for the holidays. Like you can be 35 and walk in the door for Thanksgiving, and all of a sudden you revert back to your 16-year-old self. Yeah. Like weird. How did that happen? Weird, right? So to be conscientious about how you're gonna show up in a certain moment um and to give yourself permission to actually put on a persona, like just put on the character. Like, okay, I'm not your child anymore. I'm a journalist. I'm gonna sit down, and that's and so what you say isn't gonna affect me. And as a result, we're gonna be able to draw out more and go deeper because I'm putting on this armor right now.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And you know, the as I'm sitting here thinking about it, it's I'd love when I have an organic thought from a conversation. And I think I'm thinking about our my relationship with our kids, my relationship with my mom and dad. I think there's this, there's this pinnacle moment. There's a pinnacle moment, and sometimes it happens when you realize whatever kind of like area it is that your parent is just a person. And it's and it's a really striking moment, you know, and it's and and I and I can't put a date to it or a time, but we all have it. And I think it goes to this disassociation because theoretically, and this is going to be a huge compliment on what you're trying to achieve here, is that we're more disappointed without saying it out loud that our parents aren't the thing we thought they were. And instead of getting to know them as a person, and that we we struggle with this, and I mean like struggle, we we actively have tried in period science, never more becoming our kids' friends now, but it's never been the objective. But was to be, I think the the thought was like, how can we basically be engaged and relevant and connected? And it's just like I would be the same way, the same sort of like level of um uh care I give to my friends. You know, I've got to come with my my game, myself, and conversation so that it's stimulating. But I do think as you were speaking there, um, I think we lose it at that point where we basically have a, you know, as we become adults, we realize our parents are just like us, and a lot of clarity comes in. And I think there's a there's it can be a disappointment, but I think possibly a book like this is a bridge to an opportunity.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I think uh the the real punchline to that too is that at a certain point you become your parents' parent. Yeah. Yes, which is another weird one, right? Like I I went to uh Burning Man with my dad this last year, and um it was nighttime. Uh and there's this big like rope ladder that goes up to this tree house that was an art installation that someone had put in. You know, there's lights everywhere. I think my dad maybe had a couple drinks, and he's like, I'm gonna climb up to the top of that. He's like he's like 76, right? He's got a big fur coat on, and uh all right, dude. You like I'm not gonna tell you you can. So he's like sort of you know scurrying up this rope ladder, and I'm like, I'm gonna go up right after him because if he falls, I need to catch him.
SPEAKER_01:No doubt.
SPEAKER_02:Catch my 76-year-old dad as he falls to his death because he wants to go climb up this 30-foot rope ladder. He makes it to the top, we get into the little treehouse thing, he climbs back down. And only after does he have this epiphany that I was going up as safety. Like he had no idea that that was that I was like going up because I was super worried about it.
SPEAKER_01:And what a mindfuck that is that may as well be a McDonald's ball pit. You know, I mean, in a million different ways, that's your parent behind you, and that there that is there's some synchronicity there too.
SPEAKER_02:And and they and they become uh, you know, also, you know, but like my parents still have uh their their cognitive wits about them, but for a lot of people, you know, uh a certain death happens before the physical death, yeah, right? The cognitive death. Yes. And to deal with that is um it it I think takes a lot of empathy the same way that you would empathize with a child. Like I'm not I'm not going to hold you to the same standard anymore.
SPEAKER_03:Oh right.
SPEAKER_02:And and in that, I'm not gonna just have the rest of our days be various keys of frustration.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, we have a friend going through that right now without getting into details, taking care of her mom, basically 24-7 right now. Um, and it is it's it's a complete full circle moment. Um, does number 12? Is it a question that we can play? I love this part. We just lost 18 minutes.
SPEAKER_00:And we're starting very shallow. We haven't gotten deep yet. Thank God.
SPEAKER_01:How dare you, how dare you call his book shallow right to his face.
SPEAKER_02:It is a it is a thin book. Get in there. It's a very fun book, everyone. It's like I promise you.
SPEAKER_01:Hey, we're about to find out. Yeah, we'll hey, we'll let you know how fun your book is, Kyle.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Okay. What trip will you always remember?
SPEAKER_02:You know, I thought that was the chapter I was gonna say about it. Really? That's impressive. Uh, what trip will I always remember? Oh, thank goodness. Um well, I'm gonna uh answer this question with the answer that's in the book, which is Montana. Uh it was COVID. I bought an old 1997 Ford RV with teal carpet interior and polka dot curtains. Uh, and I took my podcast on the road and spent uh six months. It was the longest I'd ever spent since I was a kid away from the ocean, um, through Colorado, Wyoming, Montana. And uh on that, on that trip, I uh I would do shout-outs on the podcast, and I made a whole group of friends uh from Missoula, Montana. They're still some of my best friends. There's little known fact in the surfing world. There is a a passionate crew of river surfers in Missoula, Montana. Crazy. And these guys are good and they shape their own boards and they chase rivers at various depths, basically, you know, with with the snowfall and the streaming. We're talking like class three, class four, class five. They totally. So they'll jump, they'll they'll like jump in, and then there's a standing wave that will form at various rivers. Um, because at at sear at various points, a river will squeeze in and it'll create what's known as a wave train. So it's like three or four successive waves that are standing in place, um, and we'll go down and we'll surf it all day. Uh so I I made friends with these guys uh every year uh since then I've gone back out on a a deer and elk hunt with these guys. Most of them are just like lifelong hunters. And um it was just, you know, uh that trip was so fun because it it was not really a surf trip.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Uh and it's just a reminder that it it if I was born out there, that's what I would be doing. Totally. Like the reason that I'm a surfer and not like, you know, a hunter, but like I guess I am a hunter now, but like you you just find people who are your people all over the world, and you realize, like, man, it's just such a luck of the draw where we were born. But no doubt. We're doing the exact same thing, just in different parts of the country.
SPEAKER_01:It reminds me, we have um we raised our kids. We for business, we were in way upstate New York near Ontario, and uh Black River had that Olympic Training Center for Kayek. It had a standing wave, and it went class four, class five, and people from all over the world would come there um in different different practices. Yeah, but we had one of those.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, Montana's awesome. Montana's such a frickin' cool state. I had a funny, a funny one. I a couple um Montana friends came and visited me when I was down in LA one time, and I was I was walking around Abbott Kinney with them, showing them, you know, big city, and uh my friend goes, he goes, Oh man, that's crazy. I've never seen anything like that. And he points to a parking lot with the you know that you know the parking lot teeth that will pop your tire when you go in the wrong way? Yeah, he's like, we don't have that in Montana. He's like, so they would pop your tire if you go in the wrong direction. I was like, yeah, we'll like pop. She's like, that seems a little aggressive, man. Like, that's crazy that we will we're like, we will pop your tire if you go in the wrong way here. Right.
SPEAKER_00:What a funny way to think about it.
SPEAKER_02:I was like, dude, that's totally right. That's like it's Nazi shit. That's crazy. That's super aggressive. But we're like, we'll slash your tire if you try and beat this$4 charge.
SPEAKER_01:Feels like there's 20 different things we could have done between you know letting you go out with the out of consequence and popping your tires. Totally. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:It's like next is like we're just gonna kill you if you try and do this.
SPEAKER_01:Stacey, what's your 12 question?
SPEAKER_00:Um a trip that I'll always remember.
SPEAKER_01:I'll throw one in while you're thinking. Yeah. We know how to play this game. The one it's been recently, it's been more um as life goes on, kids separate all over the place. We get older, they get older. But one that's resonated with me more lately is the trip to Myrtle Beach we took. Because I think, and I could be wrong, but I think it was the last time that we road trip together, all five of us, dog in the car, um, and we were down there for like two weeks, you know. But I think it ends up having higher standing in things we've done because of that simple one where, you know, the the trip was great, Myrtle's great, we did all the things down there, but that time in the car, you know, the amount of conversations we have, the playlist that you take, you curate, you know, and kind of everybody's got their own songs.
SPEAKER_00:And usually they're pretty surly and that's it, not happy, but that was a really enjoyable.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you get 11, 12 hours in the car like that with good music and stuff. So that one kind of holds up to me. You got anything popping in your head?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Uh when we went to um visit the pig beach in the Bahamas, it felt very adventurous. It was really a bucket list item. Uh, it was Brian and myself and two of my really good friends.
SPEAKER_01:Fun.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it was blessed.
SPEAKER_01:We got the iguanas and then we got the we got the you know, we get to swim with the pigs there, and it was just on our bucket list for 10 years. You go and do it.
SPEAKER_03:They're my favorite animal.
SPEAKER_02:You know, you mentioned the the Myrtle Beach thing and just driving for a long time. Uh one thing that I I recommend people do if if they don't want to sit down across from their parents, if they're like, ooh, this seems really intense. Record a car ride. Um, particularly men really have a they open we open up in car rides because we're not making eye contact with each other.
SPEAKER_01:It's so true, dude.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:That's a tactic for teenagers, also.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, let's go on a ride and we'll start talking. So you can just go on a drive with your parent, bust out the recorder, and you can do the interview on the road.
SPEAKER_01:Dude, you know what I just thought of like the 20-something podcast I've done with Nellie, and I'm sort of the outside in of those podcasts. But when you just said that, it makes me think about it. These there's chasing swells, chasing covers, but the conversations that end up having 20, 30, 10, 5 years later, even with Islas, some of the new up-and-comers down to as far as he's gone back, it's the missions, it's the driving. Yeah, it's the road trip. Yeah, it's the road trip. It is, isn't it? And especially in that culture. And then you're right. I'm thinking of like all the way back in my life, like, you know, eventually you're in a car with a dude for a long period of time and it does break down barriers. Yeah. Well, let's stay on that one while we're kind of there for a second because I'm so interested in the process and the different things you did. Um, but let's stay on the book promotion a tiny bit. Cause I know driving was a part of it, you know, you you in the RV and Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Well, the the physical vehicle for the book was this old 97 RV called Starflight. And uh and I'm very much the explorer in the book. I know I have my my personal thing that I'm trying to achieve. Um, but there are a lot of people that have done a lot of work around whether it be question asking, um, parent-child relationships, memory, like the way we think of memory is really inaccurate to how it actually works. Um parents in prehistory, you know.
SPEAKER_01:Can I stay on that one real quick? Totally. The memory. Yeah. Just let's rewind that one because I want to, I think I feel like it's a path I want to walk down a little bit. What do you mean by that?
SPEAKER_02:Well, uh we use memory to assemble our identities. So if you have a victim mindset, you're going to remember all the ways that you were slighted in your life because that helps you assemble your identity.
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_00:Creating a self-fulfilling prophecy.
SPEAKER_02:You're creating a self-fulfilling prophecy, but there's also ways that you can um essentially um reassemble your identity through picking different memories that you have. So the way this works with your parents is by asking them like the stories of their lives, the things that they remember will tell you how they think about themselves more generally. Um this the second thing about memory is that when you recall that trip to Myrtle Beach, you're actually remembering the last time you told that story in your brain. You're not remembering the the original event, even though it feels like you are. So the the second thing about memory is that it's highly fallible because we are every time we're telling a story, we're we're adding in little details, we're forgetting others, and basically just trying to turn it into a story. Um so, you know, like firsthand accounts, for example, are just like, you know, it's it's hard, you know, it's it's it's really hard. Um, but I I think that when it comes to interviewing your parents, you shouldn't, while you should be a journalist, quote unquote, you shouldn't be challenging them on the veracity of their stories. It's way more important to just let them tell that story without challenging them.
SPEAKER_01:I need to learn that.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, you do.
SPEAKER_01:With my mom. Right.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:My mom's similar to yours. It's a she's a challenge. Yeah. You know, in that way.
SPEAKER_02:Um but yeah, you know, but but but you know, I I since learning that have spent uh more time thinking about and and writing down things that I do that I want to turn into stories. So if I take a trip with a friend, I'll I'll spend a few mornings just jotting down details, thinking about how I can turn a situation into a story because what we end up remembering are stories. Right. That is ultimately what endures. That's what you cannot cut out of your brain, you know, yeah, 50 years from now. Um, so I I'm more intentional about noticing what I want to take with me. Um thinking, I may have a whole notes list of just like fun stories that have happened in my life, uh, because I want to remember them.
SPEAKER_01:Right, right. Any follow-up on that? I'm going to another question. What I'm gonna go uh how many chapters are there, Kyle? Twenty-seven. Twenty-three.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Hear that. Feel it.
SPEAKER_00:I don't like it.
SPEAKER_01:I don't either. We're gonna switch it out.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. Ooh, this is good. What's a hard truth you've had to accept?
SPEAKER_02:Ooh. Uh hard truth that I've had to accept is that uh a hard truth I've had to accept is that I'm just no good at going left surfing. And I was reminded of that truth this evening while surfing Wind and Sea. I've never been good going left. Surfing in Santa Cruz, we we are a right hand point wave, and I am probably half as good going left. Like it is, it's so embarrassing how uncoordinated I feel going the opposite direction on a surfboard. Like uniquely, uniquely bad. Uh and it's, you know, it's one of those things that I've just had to slowly learn to accept that I don't think I'm gonna get much better at going left. Um I can just try and go right as much as possible, or I can learn to live with that limitation.
SPEAKER_01:And just that might not be there. It's like I played football my whole life, and um, you tell me to throw a ball to you left-handed right now, and it's not so obvious. But the other thing too, is it it's it's so interesting to me. It's because it's specifically where you grew up.
SPEAKER_02:It's so specific. I mean, this is really, you know, why why Nat Young got so good is his mom would take him down to the beach breaks all the time and like force him to surf other waves besides just the lane, um, which is how he became such a well-rounded surfer. And it's and it's really unfortunately why we get a lot of good surfers out of Santa Cruz, but not great surfers. Yeah. Because we become very lopsided and very used to riding a specific kind of wave.
SPEAKER_01:They just don't have the reps.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, they just don't have the reps. And it's uh yeah, it's it's interesting because Santa Cruz has such good waves, but um paradoxically, if you grow up surfing bad waves, you can surf good waves, but if you grow up surfing good waves, you can't surf bad waves. Right. It becomes a lot more difficult.
SPEAKER_01:Stace 23, question 23.
SPEAKER_00:Uh the only thing that's coming to mind, I'm I know there's more, but I'm a slow processor. Um I would say that perfection is just not achievable. Like growing up, I always I think I I feel like I want to master everything. And for a while I think I thought I could, but I can't. And I think maybe that is what led to some of my injuries I've had, some I don't know, some challenges that I've I've uh experienced over the last few years. But it's been good for me. I mean, I've learned a lot from it.
SPEAKER_01:So Yeah, that's again, a lot to unpack there also. But I think for me to answer question chapter 23 is I think it's a I think I'm getting to the point now through you, through all podcasts, through all the things we're talking about, is that I think I had this false impression that I was gonna figure this out. Figure out what? All of it. All of it, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I I really kind of and I would in and in different increments. I not not necessarily my teens, twenties, thirties, but the more you kind of like decades start getting behind you, and you always feel like this this elusive, like right around the corner. I'm gonna figure it out. And then I realize, you know, kids help, life helps, friends coming going helps. Um, doing the hard work, having the conversations, I think it's almost um, I guess I'll make this analogy. Realizing I'm not going to figure out has the same sort of euphoric feeling. I'm on the edge of it, I should say, as what we're talking about, like podcasting. It feels like, it feels like net less narcissistic, less ego-driven to figure this out because to what end? Yeah. And I and I think, I think clearly we're not here to figure it out. I think I've been leaning on more, we're here to express ourselves, right? You know, on some level. And there's good, and there's a comfort in that that whether it be through this, whether it be with Kyle right now, um, and it's so fucking hard for me because I'll I'll I'll hold it and then it just slips right out of my hands when I'm in traffic, you know, and I'm holding these amazing thoughts. It's like one of the biggest things, like I'm doing therapy for the first time. Um, and I think it's one of the biggest things that I discuss there is my inability to hold a meditative thought, to hold like an intention, because life kind of just it gets very noisy for me a little bit. Um, but I'm also kind of thinking if I can replace that with um there is no there will never be a figuring this out. Right. You know, do you ever have those do you have those thoughts?
SPEAKER_02:Well, I've I've had a um a unique go at that just in the last week with the book coming out. Oh uh and it's it's quite liberating to you know it's funny, like you know, people say um, you know, when you have success, like you're just still the same person, and it's the I mean I just like my book's number one on Amazon in three categories right now. Congrats, by the way. Like just for just incredible learned that yesterday.
SPEAKER_01:Relationships, what else?
SPEAKER_02:What relationships, parent-child dynamics, and like inspirational. Like it's yeah, it's it's good. And and you know, huge thank you to Santa Cruz Vibes. Like you guys have done just a lot to help make this push happen, but it's um it's happening, you know. It's like everything I hoped. It's like, oh whoa, it's happening. People are responding to it, people are doing the thing, people are liking the writing, like whoa, and um I I just went into it not thinking that this was going to that whether that success or failure would change my baseline mood. And it and it has and it hasn't, but I went into it with that idea, and as a result, I've just been able to like ride the slip and slide and enjoy it, but not have this like grasping feeling like oh my god, like my anxiety's gonna be gone as long as so a certain number of people buy the book, or so it's it's been really helpful for me to go in with that kind of armor. Yeah, and as a result, I've just been enjoying it.
SPEAKER_01:I think you should. And I think I think when we first when I first read it and we had our pot our conversation together, I think. Nick, I told you on our show, on our little podcast, and I came home and talked to her about it. I think the more work I did into it, the more I read about it, I think there's a calm waters coming from you in a very good way. Because I think you're putting yourself into, and I hate the word, thought leader kind of category in this conversation. And I think this part's the hard part. You know, this is you basically front-facing, selling the book, going doing these things. It's the business of selling the book. But then once the book's out there, then you can do the thing I think it's coming up that you're best at. This part, you know, like this part is what you're best at, and you happen to have this tools in this book that's going to keep doing its thing. But I think you're better served for all of us is to basically uh burrow down and kind of go deeper into the fundamentals of those questions, the techniques and things like that. And I think that's kind of what you're um, and it's over a short period of time, but I think that's your begrudging um sort of um calling, you know, in in a way.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I I was really lucky that when I found writing and fell in love with writing, I made sure to keep it a very personal pursuit. So the feeling of success or failure was way in the background of the feeling of writing. Yes. Way more than surfing, way more than surfing. Like growing up in Santa Cruz, trying to be a pro surfer with friends who were better than me and always feeling like I was like, well, I was good, but I was one step behind. We're always trying to get sponsored. And we're I mean, I remember being in junior high and like showing up to Mission Hill Junior High with like Nat and like all these other kids, and we were just like bragging about the sponsors that we were getting and the like, and I think that you know, for me, it was just like from a pretty early age, it was very much about getting recognized for surfing. And it did me a huge disservice because all of a sudden you're focusing on other things besides technique, it becomes an external validation thing, right? And it's taken a I I love surfing now, and I mean I've always loved surfing, but I think that it's a much more personal pursuit for me now, and I've had to rework how I've felt about it over the years to try and regain a personal relationship with it. But when it came to writing, I was pretty good at it from the beginning.
SPEAKER_01:Are you talking high school, all of it? Or no?
SPEAKER_02:Not even high school. I didn't really write a lot in high school, and I didn't really read a lot. I was always very, I had a great memory and I was loved story, but it was much more visual story. Gotcha. And it wasn't actually until um really writing for Santa Cruz Waves early that I got my start with uh an a fantastic editor named Elizabeth Lombach, who really kind of took me under her wing and sh and showed me the ropes of it. Um, but right from the beginning, I was like, this is the shit. I guess I can do this and I can do this well, and I can be, I can be funny, I can go deep. Like in a lot of ways, writing is a much purer expression of who I am than this is right here. Yeah. And and I was because I'd had the experience surfing of kind of like losing the personal relationship with it, I maintained like, okay, just keep this to yourself. Like that feeling that you that I get when I'm writing and I make myself giggle, because I come up with a funny idea, like nothing compares to that. I totally agree. Nothing compares to that. So the the process of writing the book was really, I mean, it was challenging at times, but fun. Yeah, it was fun. And like, yeah, it promoting the book, having it be successful, it's all good. I'm stoked, but it's a distant second to what I get every morning when I'm just doing the scales and writing.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. You didn't have Angelo Ross when you were at Mission Hill, did you? I didn't, no. P. No, I didn't. He was, I think he was right before you, but we did we did his funeral today. He was 30 years, I think, at Mission Hill. And it was before you, because you're a little young for the cut, but it uh Mission Hill just made me think of it. And before we get to the third question, one that kind of lingered from our first 10 or 15 minutes was um the arc of the story you were talking about, the story you wanted to tell. And the one that kind of jumped out to me was like as you were doing this process, I'm talking about your relationship with your mom in that household. You know, we always kind of talk about having conversations with your shadow self or different versions of yourself. When you were writing this book, you're writing this book as a accomplished writer, podcaster, your mind around it, but did you find yourself in a room, the quiet of the writing, where you're reconciling some shit with a younger shadow self of your younger self? Because I think the interesting question to me is like, you've got perspective on it. One, um, when did you get perspective that it was conspiracies? You know, because a lot of times we grow up in it and you don't, how do you differentiate between what your parents say, because that shit's real, and what, you know, like when did you did you have a light bulb moment like there might be some shenanigans going on here?
SPEAKER_02:Uh yeah, I mean, I I there are, you know, you can get into the book uh about exactly what it is that we're talking about. Yeah. But I I tend to think that if we're to really zoom out around the psychology of conspiracy theories, which is really what I'm talking about in in the book, um, because some conspiracy theories are real, they they turn out to be true, right? Like I'm not saying that that that it's all incorrect, but if you have a psychology where you believe that a small cabal of the Illuminati are pulling the strings of disparate global events and it's all completely organized. And across any current event that happens, your brain tends to gravitate to the most fringe perspectives on that issue. Chances are that's speaking to some sense of identity in you that that makes you feel more interesting, it makes you feel like you're on an inner circle, makes you feel like you know something that other people don't. Right. And it um immediately raises your status. So you can be high status with zero effort. All of a sudden you're like, you they don't know. They're the sheeple. I know. Right. So if if if you find yourself gravitate to that thing because it's giving you a little bit of a status boost, um, that's something to watch out for. Right. And and you could be you could be right about some some stuff, but there's a utility to truth, and there's a utility to picking things apart with nuance. And I it can lead you very astray if you're trying to get out of the woods with a broken compass.
SPEAKER_01:I told I totally agree. All the more reason to dig into that book a little bit. Um so heart rate up. Here comes the sound. It's your turn though, Kyle. You know your chapters, or you can pick one, or just if you forget, give us a number and we'll answer the question.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, let's uh let's go for chapter five.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. What have you changed your mind about?
SPEAKER_02:Um I have changed my mind about um I have changed my mind about quite a lot, but I think that the one that is most recent and applicable um is this idea of talent being rare. Yeah, I think that for a long time I believed that that talent was a rare thing that only a few people had. And um I don't believe that anymore. I I think that there are hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people right now who who spend way too much time on social media and are um they are forfeiting great works of art that they could be creating due to a lack of structure and discipline. I think if you put an average or even below average person into a structured artistic discipline, and by that I mean you do one thing for an hour a day with undistracted time, internet off, phone off, whether that's painting, building, writing, I think that they can over uh a period of time produce a great work of art. And and to it might seem like a separate idea, but it I think it's really the same as the power of compound interest is a much more um powerful force in the universe than talent. So if you do if you if you show up to do the same thing again and again over a month, you're not gonna see much. Six months, you're gonna see more. A year, you're gonna see more. Ten years, all of a sudden, this person's gonna be a master. I mean, this is I mean, I think Chachi was talented from an early age with photography, but what has made him a true master in that discipl discipline is the compound interest of time spent doing the thing.
SPEAKER_01:And it's gonna do that, it's exponential. So you have that you I I I've never thought of it that way, like adding compound interest to ourselves and our talent, ourselves and a commitment to anything. Um that's fascinating. Stace, do you got one? I got one if you're thinking.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, go ahead.
SPEAKER_01:I think for me, and this has been the two and a half year journey that Choc and I have been on with vibes, it's put me much more front-facing, talking to the community, talking to nonprofits. And I think what I've changed my mind on is I think a significant amount of people in our society are much more optimistic than we think they are. And I mean that because of these intimate conversations, having personal conversations with people. And I spoke about this at our pickup party the other night, is I think what we have to do is get out of our own way because we've got a darkness in us that cheers against other people that don't want to basically interact in these platforms that we're sort of stuck in right now. Because the for me, hitting the street, talking to people in these kind of formats or off-camera, whatever it is, um, there's a tremendous sense of of optimism in their own lives individually. And then you start adding these other kind of like factors into it that weighs it down. But I don't think that's transactable. I don't think um, I think the world that we live in is that um I think we've monetized division. And I said this in some other conversation at some point, but I think we've by monetizing and and creating a you know capital endeavor over division, um, I think that's a very extreme percentage of people that feel one way or the other about it. I think on whole, people individually are optimistic about their lives, their potential, and what they think their their life's going to be. And what I struggle with in these conversations is why doesn't that translate into the community narrative? But to answer the question simply, I think I've changed my opinion because I think before we were in this front-facing media company, I think I would have been more in the kind of the lemming crowd thing, like, shit's pretty tough right now. There's insecurities. It's all very true. But that's in that's because that plays on the cable networks, that plays on panels, that plays on TikTok, that plays the monetization of division and how big of a business it is makes it feel that way. But I think the reality is the more we do this, I think you get more of a hope for people's individual stories. It's and for me, I don't even have the answer to this, what this realization means, but I've changed my mind on that in the in this in the spot we've been in. Um a little overwhelming because but I think we just need to call that shit out with people.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, no, and uh the monetization also of showing people whose lives are train wrecks, which which makes us feel like society is a worse place than it is. But look, the reason we watch reality TV shows is because it makes us feel good about ourselves. That's it.
SPEAKER_01:That's it.
SPEAKER_02:Like we can't look away because we're like, look at this train wreck. I'm not doing so bad. Like it's permission for you to feel good, right? If someone is, if there's a reality TV show about people that are crushing it and also more psychologically together than you like better in every avenue, yeah, people are gonna turn that show off.
SPEAKER_01:There's no doubt about it.
SPEAKER_02:Because it, unless you're like truly inspired and want to be better, you're gonna feel like you're not cutting it. Right. So so there's a monetization also in showing people that are like D minus humans, because we're like, yes, crushing it. Like, I can't believe I'm watching this, but I can't look away.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I I think and I think what we're doing here on some level, and it and it's and it's we all have these increments that we can do, but I think it's the Grand Canyon of bullshit and that feeling. And then, you know, one last question before you go is just a really sturdy, nice rope bridge. And even the small things we do at you know, vibes are where you kind of abdicate, you know, and I think the more and more, and maybe that's just one rope bridge we can use to get to the other side so we feel this way. But I think as a community, if we start building more of these, connecting more, then all of a sudden there's equal access to these bridges all the way across that cavern of of you know, the the the depths of like the sorrow we feel and the isolation and the loneliness. But I also think that's overhyped. Did you get one? Is that enough time?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, um, yeah. I've had several ideas. Um I guess what I would say is I would narrow it down to I've changed my mind about the fact that I need to find all the answers. So I I really am a researcher. I if there's a topic I'm interested in, I read voraciously to help me understand. And there's benefit to that, but I need to uh really rely on my own intuition a lot more.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_00:And as I've gotten older, I've come to trust that more where I didn't have any trust in it before. So I I sought out every answer from other places. But I think sort of a combination of all of it, it it it really helps helps me guide my way through things.
SPEAKER_01:That's good stuff. Kyle, that's um now we're getting to the nitty-gritty of though. I don't think we'll promote the we'll say it for the um historical record that we've got a really rad event uh tomorrow night at uh Patagonia that we'll all see each other again. But I don't know if I can might possibly turn this around by then, but it won't have that much of an effect. But what about the book? Where do we get it? I know there's the the physical copies we can get, downtown bookshop Santa Cruz, but the other places for people that are hearing this all over the world.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I mean Amazon's the easiest way, but if you um hate Amazon, you can call your local bookstore and get it ordered there. One last question before you go. Uh and yeah, I mean, I I think that um yeah, I wanted to give you a compliment because when when Santa Cruz Waves was was around, I I felt that one of the most important things about that magazine was the fact that it was physical. Um and and the way that we look at like numbers, like how many viewers do you have? I I don't think is like an apples to apples thing because if you're holding a physical um piece of media in your in your hand, which is what you're doing now, it um it gets in deeper with people. You know, I was so happy that you brought back, you know, brought this back with Santa Cruz Vibes because I think that what a physical piece of media does is it creates a a more cohesive narrative within a community in a way that Instagram posts don't. Right. Um, and when you come out with with stories, you know, in this, it it is the story of Santa Cruz for that month. Uh and people just engage with it on such a deeper level. Uh and and yeah, I was I'm very happy to have a physical product as well that people can you know hold, they can write notes in, they can dog ear. Um, and a lot of you know what we need to do in terms of our um uh the media, I think is like go back to what we have. Like physical books, physical magazines and audio in this format is good. It is like it is good, and anything we've tried to do beyond that has just been worse.
SPEAKER_01:It's so true. And when when when Chachi and I, when Stacey, we when we all had this concept a couple and a half years ago, we did swim upstream against it because it was clearly if we're gonna put a bunch of money in, it was to we should have gotten influenced, we should have gone on TikTok, but we went with long form narrative, we went with the podcasting, and I think I can already see the edge of the world where um this narrative media company that we kind of bill ourselves as is it is the path forward right now. It is tangible. And and we one, we're super proud of it, but also I think it's an extension of it. The magazine allows you in the quiet to linger, to to kind of like the we have so much noise out there, Kyle. And I think you know, the magazine is itself is uh, you know, curl up and check out some different perspectives and do that stuff. But um, got to get you, I I did verify after our last one. You have written one for us. You wrote one article in our third issue. And happy to do more. I would love to get you back in there. But um, so the outside of the Amazons, all those ones, what about like direct contacts with like um a website or anything like that? Or say is there anything there to speak over Instagram handles?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I mean, you can go to tearman.substack.com. Uh that's my substack where you can get my newsletter. Uh my podcasts are in all the usual places. Um Kyle Cheerman Show. Kyle Tierman Show. And if you want to do me a real solid uh you can write a review on Amazon. You don't even need to buy the book there, but that is how we get this idea out to more people. I can take 60 seconds.
SPEAKER_01:I well, it took me about two and a half minutes because I put a lot of love into it.
SPEAKER_02:You did. I appreciate that review. Thanks so much, brother. This is fantastic. We'll see you tomorrow night. Thanks, Kyle.
SPEAKER_03:Cool.
